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Trent_W

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  • That's true.
  • Hi @Jeph , sorry that I was unclear before. I was referring to monster hit point growth in my 8x vs 15x comparison. In 4e, most monsters gain +8 hp and +1 damage per level. In 5e, monsters tend to gain about +15 hp and +3 damage per CR. If we're com…
  • Hi @2097 , I was basing my comparisons on both editions' monster math. A typical CR 1/4 to CR 1 has about a +3 or +4 to hit and about AC 12 to 14. A typical CR 20 has about +13 to +15 to hit and about 19 to 21 AC. That maps up pretty close with 1/2x…
  • @2097 ah ok, I see it now. So, I'd like to amend my previous statement. I didn't want to get into all of the details but when you compare the two editions: - Attack Bonus: 4e's 1x vs 5e's 1/2x = 4e math divided by 2 - Armor Class: 4e's 1x vs 5e's 1/…
  • Hi @2097 , oh that's interesting! Not surprising though, they made some initial mistakes with 4e's math as well (although later corrected them). Is there a more accurate business card posted somewhere? Trent
  • Hi @Deliverator , sure but if we're really being honest here its not about whether the Treadmill Effect exists or not, but how transparent and unambiguous the game is about its mathematical assumptions. Most D&D style games make you jump through…
  • Hi @shimrod , just to be clear I wasn't suggesting *you* thought the classes were too similar. It was more of a general observation of the cultural response to 4e, which I strongly feel is rooted in the fact that certain character types (spellcaster…
  • Hi @2097 no worries and no hatchet to bury. I agree with what @shimrod wrote above. Its like I said in my last post: 4e models non-combat challenges as Skill Challenges (for the most part) and assumes everyone is working together *as a team* the …
  • Good answers, thanks! From what I hear, 4e has that feature as well. Would you agree with that? Hi Paul, yes 4e is hands down the best balanced iteration of Dungeons & Dragons --- both in terms of intra-PC balance as well as the reliability an…
  • @2097 just speaking from the standpoint of D&D player psychology here, they're going to be a lot more likely to voluntarily drop the flashlight if that means rolling with a penalty vs automatically failing. Of course, for some players even that …
  • What if, instead of automatically failing at the task, the player rolls with disadvantage? That way, it becomes a kind of trade-off: roll with disadvantage now so you can roll with advantage later on. Trent
  • Hi @Paul_T , (My basic understanding is that in Basic D&D, you'd make a saving throw or an ability check - which are basically the same thing in 5e - whereas in 3e, we'd look up some highly specific and involved rules for a specific situation …
  • Ah, well said then!
  • Hi @JDCorley I'd argue it continued on into 2009. 4E's DMG2 is the closest Dungeons and Dragons has ever gotten (and probably ever will get) to any kind of "storygame". Trent
  • Hi Sandra, I apologize if I slighted you but in respect to Jeph's wishes I have no interest in continuing this discussion here (nor in rehashing things I've already apologized for). Have a great day. Trent
  • Hi Sandra, I think you misunderstand me. I'm using the DPR calculations for the purpose of comparing the monsters' relative threat level across the two editions (which, from what I can tell, are pretty damn near the same despite 5E marketing suggest…
  • Ahhh, you're right. I messed up my math. The CR1 should have 30 hp and 10 damage with the same attack bonus and AC. My bad. So, with that in mind.... Monsters Kill PC: 66/(0.3 × 10) = 22 rounds to kill, or approximately 5.5 monsters per PC for a 4-…
  • Hi Sandra @2097 , I apologize for the curtness of my earlier posts. I read the thread over the weekend so I may not have seen the more recent posts and was trying to hammer out a response before my students came in this morning. I think its importa…
  • So you’re still saying 5e did a thing that I (Sandra) likes—binding accuracy tight af—better than any other edition? So what are we even arguing about? I should start playing 4E because it’s better than the edition I think is the crappiest edition o…
  • Above all… what are you trying to say here? That 5e should go back to how 4E worked, that 4E was somehow better? You’re not really selling it with the mere eleven level span (or nine-level span in the RC) and the idea of recontextualizing and custom…
  • Agree completely. This was a problem that 3e/PF exacerbated and that 4E took to a ridiculous degree. (Much to love about 4E but this is not one.) However, when 5e scaled it back, they scaled it way back. This is incorrect. 4E's attack bonus curve …
  • 1 skeleton is dangerous to a level 1 hero. 17 skeletons are dangerous to a level 9 hero. The exact same statblock. Really great for sandbox games, I don’t have to do the 4E “this is a level 14 goblin Hi Sandra, I'm not sure if you're aware but 17 le…
  • The “free and clear” (ask everyone what they’re doing before resolving anyone’s move) that Kenny suggests is something I have no doubt Vincent would recommend, if there’s ever doubt and everyone is shouting all at once. I’ve seen him do that when ru…
  • normally every thing you do in D&D 5e costs an action, a reaction, or a bonus action. But as a house rule, we've added that you can spend the next turn's actions, in advance, to dodge. Oh, I quite like that. Very cool. Trent
  • Have you read Vincent's Burned Over game? It is a "PG-13" rewrite of Apocalypse World and it explicitly calls out certain moves as being "highly interruptible". It also has much more explicit and detailed procedures for the Interrupt Someone move (y…
  • Great stuff, @Paul_T and @DannyK . I especially appreciate the references to the Flashpoint technique and Weaves and Crosses. Kudos. Trent
  • So, this is what 4E actually says about martial powers: The martial power source might seem as though it isn't a power source at all. A martial practitioner can't produce overtly supernatural effects, such as rays of blinding radiance or shields of…
  • I think we're rubbing off on each other.
  • The new rule: Wound ThresholdThe new rule separates the injuring hit from the hit that makes you faint. You take the injury when you hit your wound threshold.If you do take a hit without fainting, you get 1 insp. You get it in time to use on the lin…
  • @2097 very true.
  • Well, it's more... pretty much all of those maneuvers are things that anyone could do, except the normal way sometimes takes more actions, sometimes doesn't deal as much (or any) damage etc. So it's like... you're not doing this once-per-E "move", i…
  • Agreed, @Guy Srinivasan , although I would argue that remembering your enemy rolled a natural 20 is more intuitive to most players than remembering you fell below a particular hit point threshold (even if its a threshold that is the same for everyon…
  • Sandra, might it just be simpler to tie lingering injuries to critical hits and/or critical misses on saving throws? You have a similar frequency (5% notwithstanding critical range shenanigans) that a) scales well, b) is fairly easy to remember, c) …
  • Essentials really went into some weird stuff I never found useful. There's some nice stuff post-Essentials in like, Heroes of Shadow for instance, but I generally feel like quality dropped off with Essentials because it felt like they were pandering…
  • A lot of the problem I'm having w/ my game is b/c I don't do a good enough job of putting in zones & aspects. I mean I do when I write my own dungeons but I don't know how to, or whether to, fix dungeons that are part of a canned module. Some of…
  • I agree, I was thinking more about the stances the slayer has than any post-hoc special moves Yeah, I feel you there. I actually really like the stances and tricks in Heroes of the Fallen Lands. There's some neat design going on there and because th…
  • Disclaimer: I am of course kidding. Mostly.
  • Not at all! That's a very common attitude/complaint. I feel the same way (though I'll give Trent's counterpoint some thought - it's not entirely untrue!). In any case, lots of gamers would share your attitude here (maybe even the majority). I'm fe…
  • So to create a fighting system that has a lot of options and variety but doesn't give me the complete out-of-the-body experience that some of these "menu selection" video games do would be the best of both worlds♥ See, for me (and @EmmatheExcrucian …
  • The way you phrased that, DeReel, makes me think it's… kinda GOOD that the higher CR enemies have a higher chance of knocking you out by bypassing your wound threshold. Guy with a sword? Maybe you can stand up. GREEN DRAGON BREATHING POISON!? zoinks…
  • Hi @2097 , have you considered something like consequences in FATE? Perhaps once per long rest a player can *choose* to take a debilitating injury *instead* of hit point damage. It puts a bit more agency in the players' hands. Personally, I dislike…
  • Hi @2097 , yes but for me its more informed from my experience and training in martial arts (I studied Olympic wrestling and Chinese kung-fu and tai chi in high school and then Japanese ninpou as a young adult) than from anime fandom. Any trained fi…
  • But it doesn’t feel like me doing it. Selecting actions from a list vs selecting tools (such as a sword, or a spell) from a list. Yes, the clerics “actions” are specific prayers (spells) and that is a mitigating factor, don’t get me wrong. But where…
  • 4. D&D4 versus other editions. I don't have a good argument here, because I've actually never played D&D4. (Which maybe means I should shut up as far as this part of the discussion is concerned! That wouldn't be unfair. Take everything I sa…
  • 100% agree with @shimrod , @Khimus , and @EmmatheExcrucian here. Trent
  • Oh, that means that I misunderstood another thing about your position, Trent, I thought you also wanted to throw out stance theory. Thanks for clarifying. No worries, Sandra. I like stance theory and think it does a much better job of explaining wh…
  • Whereas, by contrast, I often get the reaction from 4E fans that it's a sacred perfect untouchable jewel of a game that did nothing wrong. Hi Sandra, I'm not sure who you've been interacting with but that's not true of the 4E communities with which …
  • So there has been confusion, on my own part admittedly, between dissociated (please stop calling it disassociated – maybe that’s why you are provoked? disassociated would be a horrible thing to call a mechanic. it’s dissociated) and just abstracted.…
  • Slowly working my way down the discussion... I DO think that D&D 4E seems to have a lot more of those "sticking points" than many other RPGs, at least for some people, but I don't think we'd all agree on where those are. Paul, thank you; I want …