Does anyone think a game is too expensive that they actually enjoy playing?

edited August 2007 in Story Games
Do you own any games that you play frequently that you think retroactively are too expensive?

Comments

  • Story games? No. Every damn minatures game I've evr played? Yes.
  • Miniatures games, if you count em.

    This is my second time around with Warhammer games. I went into it knowing I'd spend $200+ to have a small (400pt) army.
    I spent like $360.
  • I think I see where you're going with the hypothesis.

    And I have to chime in: The ones that I don't play: I sometimes think are too expensive. Ones I play, or HAVE played, regularly: Never thought that to my knowledge.

    The only one I can think of is Battle Lore: At the time I thought it was well worth the $70 price tag. Now, after having played it a bit, and haven't played it regularly for a long time, I'm thinking it was a little too expensive for the value it brought to me. I'm actually looking to sell it, too.

    -Andy
  • Well, I've certainly amassed far, far, FAR more D&D, d20, and HERO books than I ever actually use(d).
  • Andy's got the formula down. Do you play the game? With how many people? For how long?

    Played RPGs are all cheap. Really cheap. A movie costs $10 for about 1.5 hours of fun, on average. We'll round that down to $6 per man hour of fun. Let's say you play Battle Lore with four people one night (including GM, so a smallish group), for four hours. That's 16 man hours of fun, or $4.38 per hour.

    And that's if you only ever play it once. Play a ten session campaign, and you're down to cents per man hour of fun. If you play, like I have with Heroquest, 200 sessions... that's a couple of cents per man hour of fun (HQ cost me much less, so actually it's at less than a cent per man hour of fun right now for me).

    Put it this way... name me one cheaper hobby. One. A day of skiiing costs me $50, and that's not including all of the money that goes for equipment (more than $1000, even if you only include stuff that can only be used for skiing).

    Outdoor jogging. There, that's the one cheaper hobby. Basically you have to find something that's free to do, in order to find something that's cheaper than RPGs. In fact, I have a pretty extensive game collection, just from over the years. Including lots of stuff I haven't played (despite having a general policy against it). I probably have upwards of $10,000 worth of stuff...

    Still cheap. I've probably played 5000 hours of RPGs easy over the past 30 years.

    RPG gamers complain about the cost of RPGs... and I just can't fathom it.

    Mike
  • From Critical Miss, one of my favorite all-time RPG articles:

    The Problem With Roleplaying

    I had a conservation with a bloke at my work the other week. I mentioned that the latest attempt to launch a printed roleplaying magazine in the UK had apparently failed after two issues. He immediately replied: "Well that's not surprising is it?"

    I asked why?

    "Well I've only met one roleplayer other than you - and that was a bloke I worked with years ago. There just aren't enough roleplayers to support a magazine."

    Numbers. That what we always say to ourselves, isn't it? There aren't enough people. Now I'm not denying that we couldn't do with more, but I think the answer is more complex. His next lines gave me the clue.

    "I mean I'm into radio-controlled model planes, and even that's only big enough to support two magazines, at least there's only two really decent ones."

    Radio-controlled model planes. Well, as I pointed out to him, I'd only ever met one person into that hobby, ever, and that was him. He was clearly assuming that loads more people were into his hobby than roleplaying, but I don't think that's the case.

    I figure there's as many roleplayers as there are radio-controlled flight enthusiasts. Maybe more.

    The problem isn't numbers. It's money.

    I asked him how much it cost to be into radio-controlled planes. Initially he acted like anyone does when they think you're attacking their hobby, with a robust defence of how little money it needs: "Well you don't need much... you can get started with a few bits of balsa wood and an elastic band..."

    Eventually though (I had to prod him a bit) he came up with a ball-park figure of £300 (about $450) per person per year. That's about what he expect the average person to spend on planes, controllers, tools, books, magazines and so on.

    £300 per person per year. And that's the average person. The serious enthusiasts will spend a lot more.

    What about our typical group of five roleplayers, meeting up for a game every Thursday night. You figure they spend £1500 ($2250) a year between them on roleplaying stuff? Some maybe, but I'd guess most of them come some way under that figure.

    That £300 pounds a year that each model plane person spends supports an entire industry, supplying planes, controllers, spare parts and probably a whole lot more crap. And the myriad of companies making up that industry all need to advertise their wares.

    And all those adverts support two thick, juicy, thriving magazines.

    It isn't lack of numbers that's killing roleplaying.

    It's because it's too sodding cheap.
  • Posted By: Mike HolmesRPG gamers complain about the cost of RPGs... and I just can't fathom it.
    As usual, I agree 100%. I'm always amused by arguments based on per-page costs, as if the key to making a worthwhile RPG is small fonts and tight margins, 'casue it's text bulk that really matters. :)

    But, John, are you asking about perceptions of value? E.g., "Intellectually, I know RPGs are cheap, but I feel like RPG X isn't worth what I paid."

    I'm not sure I can think of any RPGs about which I feel this way, though I've certainly bought game product that I later sold, which would seem to mean that I didn't value it as much as I thought I would.
  • Er, I thought Battle Lore was a board-game, not an rpg?

    Anyway, I suspect the perception of rpgs to be expensive comes from the inability to get gaming going.

    I'm with pretty much everyone else on this one: When you're actively playing a game, rpgs ( and boardgames even more so. Heck even mnis begin to look like pretty good buys...) are "great dollar to fun hours buys".

    However, that value goes down in a bunch of ways, primarily due to the ease of getting a game up and running.

    Most board games can be played with two people, a minimum of fuss, and picked up, pulled out, played and put away in a short time period.

    Minis wargames cost from around the price of an rpg corebook to around the cost of a modest used car to play. However, they also have the Lonely Fun bonus ( craft project aspect), usually only need two players, and frankly have a much higher visual appeal than non-minis games ( which can be an important recruiting tool). Minis games also tend to have an only slightly longer play time than boardgames (due mostly to set-up/breakdown time).

    Now rpgs?

    Rule book lengths. I can't usually say enough bad things about this one. Half my interest in the games I'm trying out recently has to do with their vastly smaller page count compared to the average mainstream rpg.

    Number of players: Generally more than two are needed. Coordinating the schedules of multiple people can be a hassle al its own.

    Play time: Lots of open-endedness with rpgs, plus a culture that favors the long term campaign over the one night, 1-3 hour session.

    Anyway, my point is that an unplayed game is too expensive, and rpgs commonly have a number of facets that make them less likely to be played.
  • The difference between most radio-controlled hobby enthusiasts and most roleplayers is that the RC guys actually like spending money on their hobby. The high incidence of post-purchase dissatisfaction in roleplaying kills that enjoyment. But when you buy a new engine for your RC car you pretty much know what you're getting. There are objective quality and performance standards. Roleplaying games produce buyer's remorse by promoting dysfunctional social dynamics, making promises they don't deliver on, and by driving sales via hype and via manufactured collectibility.

    Paul
  • edited August 2007
    Oh, I hate this whole "Is it too cheap?" argument.

    There's too many undeclared interests: if you're a game designer, it's in your interests to argue it's too cheap, so you can charge more!; if you're a consumer, it's in your interests to argue it's too expensive, so you pay less.

    Sure, I can show you loads of cheaper hobbies: being a Doctor Who enthusiast, walking in the country, cooking. You can show me expensive ones: radio-controlled cars, bicycling. Why bother? We won't agree at the end of it.

    (This entire post is written with love, you understand.)

    Graham
  • I spend a lot more on my cooking hobby than my role-playing hobby.

    Albeit I'm a decidedly stingy gamer.

    yrs--
    --Ben
  • I don't think cooking is cheaper than roleplaying, Graham. Unless your hobby is roadkill cooking. :)
  • Awesome responses!

    komradebob... right on! I pretty much agree with every word you wrote.

    When I said game, I definitely meant an RPG. I should have specified. Sorry about that.

    Why did I post all this?

    Since Gencon I've been involved in or overheard 4 in person conversation about RPGs being too expensive. After asking a few questions I noticed the following in general (there are always exceptions):

    People who I spoke to that thought RPGs were too expensive also:
    - weren't sure if they would actually be able to play the RPG (time, players)
    - wanted to read but not play the RPG
    - wanted to buy it so they can keep up to date with new ideas and innovations in RPGs
    - wanted to buy it as research for their own game
    - download RPGs illegally but will buy if they can convince themselves the price warrants purchasing a printed copy

    Several of the people I spoke to who are college students (many working at fast food restaurants) thought several RPGs were expensive but not too expensive (meaning they don't have money to throw around but it isn't completely unreasonable) and they just all split the cost. $30 game split between 6 players... that's $5 each. But these were also cases where they were convinced they would actually play the game 2-3 times.

    For me, I don't think RPGs are expensive when:
    - I intend to play the game
    - I know the person who wrote it and I want to support them

    But ultimately, the reason I started this thread is because I don't think I've ever heard someone declare an RPG was expensive that actually actively play it (I'm sure someone has, there are usually exceptions or I could just be completely wrong).

    How does this all measure against your own experiences?
  • John! To answer your first post, no: if I play a game regularly, then I've got my money's worth from it, so it wasn't too expensive.

    Graham
  • Posted By: komradebobRule book lengths. I can't usually say enough bad things about this one. Half my interest in the games I'm trying out recently has to do with their vastly smaller page count compared to the average mainstream rpg.
    Amen. I loved that I was recently able to read Sorcerer & Sword in two short sittings; it could have been one if I had read it over a weekend. I look at the stack of Eberron books I have and—despite it giving the gamer collector in me a certain naughty glee—I just think, "Crap. By the time I finish reading all that, 4e will be out and all the crunch will be obsolete."

    Not to pick on D&D. I just got my copy of Reign yesterday (300+ pages) and had similar thoughts, given the odds I'll run it more than once are slim.
  • Posted By: jenskotSeveral of the people I spoke to who are college students...
    There's your problem right there. :)
  • I don't have any RPGs I play that I think are too expensive. I wish they were cheaper, but that's not quite the same thing.

    I do play, or played in the past, many collectible games (minis and cards) and all of those are too expensive. Even the Munchkin line of card games, which aren't collectible but are insanely fun, are too expensive.
  • I'm not sure games are too expensive, even just as books. A hardcover game costs maybe £20 and a hardback novel costs about £18. No spectacular difference. Consumers always think things are too expensive; it's their job in a capitalist society!

    Aside: one of the reasons people find games disappointing is that they think that they will be fun to read when, in fact, 95% of games, even good ones, are shit-boring to read. I have a friend who keeps his rule books in the bathroom because they only time he can be bothered reading them is when he is on the toilet.
  • For a while, I felt like any game I actually spent money on quickly became too expensive, by virtue of the fact that I never got to play it again afterward. What I mean is that my group would start up with a game when someone bought a copy of the book. We'd get very excited about it and play like crazy. Then, for convenience or to support the producers of such a fine game, the rest of the players would pick up the book as well. Boom! As soon as we were all invested, interest in the game would drop like a rock.

    This has happened to me with boardgames (Empires in Arms) and RPGs (Gurps, Pendragon). We did okay with Fudge, but then that one was free. Last year it happened with Burning Wheel, when our group finally decided to change to a lighter rules game just after I bought the books. At that point I thought the game was a great value ("$25 for two books? Sweet!") but I haven't had a chance to play it since.

    Recently we broke this streak with TSOY. We've used that system to run half a dozen games over the last year and half, even after everybody else in the group bought a copy mid-stream. So we're squeezing a lot of value out of that game.

    Of course I've jinxed it now...
  • Money I can spare, so cost in dollars isn't a big deal. If anything, I can afford more stuff than I can use. Compulsive consumerism leads me to piles of books I haven't read yet, DVDs I haven't watched yet, boardgames I haven't played yet. The cost in storage space is more of an issue! I think my partner secretly resents that an entire closet is reserved for my comic book collection.

    I don't have a lot of time for games, so there's the queasy feeling that I'm never going to get to play this stuff. But I do derive a lot of pleasure from reading all the material in the books and on the boards, and imagining characters and settings, so I don't think it's wasted money or time.
  • Posted By: jenskotFor me, I don't think RPGs are expensive when:
    - I intend to play the game
    - I know the person who wrote it and I want to support them
    Yes. My example is Steal Away Jordan. At $20, I thought that the price point was a bit high. (I would have been happier with $15.) But I wanted to support Julia (reason #2), and I'm interested in playing the game (reason #1). So I bought it and do not regret it.

    Also, I don't buy a game unless I think that there is a near-certainty that I will be able to play it.

    Seth Ben-Ezra
    Great Wolf
  • i have TONS of games i've never played. i've NEVER split the cost of an rpg with the people i game with. they like to play and will play about anything i'm willing to run, and they dig the hobby enough to enjoy going to gen con... but they're not so into it that they'd buy books and run something on their own. strangely, i still rarely feel like a book was too expensive. i actually enjoy reading them. for various reasons. i enjoy reading my WoD books because i find the setting fairly interesting, and like reading about "kewl p0werz". i enjoy reading the "indie" books i've been picking up more lately because either the setting is really interesting or the mechanics fascinate me, or sometimes both.

    don't get me wrong. i really want to get more of my books out into the proverbial sunshine and start playing them. but even when i just read them, i still usually feel like its money well spent... especially compared to many other things i could spend it on... like... to take the two most extreme examples, drugs and strippers. :)

    -brian
  • I’d have to agree with Mike that gaming, especially pen & paper RPGs is among the cheapest hobbies the world has ever know…short perhaps of tic-tac-toe, checkers, or the girl next door. Yes, I think that in some cases RPGs are “too sodding cheap,” as noted in that lovely Critical Miss article. Thanx Andy.

    Concerning buyer’s remorse, as mentioned by Paul, I have to agree that hype, and broken promises are an issue…most especially when games are sold in shrink-wrap. This latter is the culprit in my own instances of buyer’s remorse. I diverge from his opinions, however, where dysfunctional social dynamics are concerned. I think that’s more a pre-existing social issue, than a game material issue. Think gun control, and video game violence debates, and you’re where I’m at on the “bad games make for breaches in the social contract” argument.

    Now, concerning the suggestion that game designers want more money, while game consumers want to spend less, I’m not so sure this holds up to my admittedly limited experiences of Indie RPGs. From what I’ve seen Indie Game Designers seem more apt to sell themselves short in comparison to big box RPG. $20 for a good RPG, or really any RPG, seems really cheap to me, especially if the whole RPG is contained in that one volume. Contrast that with situations where it’s $30+ per volume, but three volumes are needed to play the game properly. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I spend way more than $20 on pop, coffee, and lunch in a day.

    Personally, I like to collect RPGs, so I tend to sooth any remorse by reminding myself that RPGs that have disappointed me are additions to an unfinished collection.

    Regards, Brad
    p.s. – Questions like this one make me think that an Indie RPG focused marketing research survey might just be a good thing.
  • edited August 2007
    This thread is making me a little irritated. My calm, thought-out response is:

    The statements "Indie RPGs are cheap" and "Indie RPGs are expensive" are rhetoric.

    They are cheap if you compare them in one way. They are expensive if you compare them in another way.

    Graham
  • There are a few games I play and enjoy that I find too expensive. D&D being one, but there are a few others. The main problem for me, though, is that sometimes I find even the game-night snack purchases to be too expensive. And, at my more desperate times, the subway ride to and from the game. So obviously game-value isn't the only concern I have when making such a purchase.
  • edited August 2007
    Posted By: joepubMiniatures games, if you count em.

    This is my second time around with Warhammer games. I went into it knowing I'd spend $200+ to have a small (400pt) army.
    I spent like $360.
    I never really understood this about miniature games. Why not just use proxies? Like copy and print out the pics from unit stat cards/blocks and stand then on some plastic clips? Wouldn't that decrease spending on rulebook + army to just rulebook + codex (essentially $50 - 60)?

    EDIT: As hobby gamers, our specialty skill is to pretend. Why not just go half a step further and pretend that printed stand-ups give just as much strategic gaming value as a fully-painted (and fully-priced) official mini?
  • Posted By: Graham WThis thread is making me a little irritated. My calm, thought-out response is:

    The statements "Indie RPGs are cheap" and "Indie RPGs are expensive" are rhetoric.

    They are cheap if you compare them in one way. They are expensive if you compare them in another way.

    Graham
    Certainly valuations like "cheap," and "expensive" are opinions, and add to the whole smelly bunch of them. In one context they're rightly evaluated as "rhetorical."

    Consider, though, how deeply such ephemeral things as opinion, and rhetoric for that matter, impact the industry...even if the industry in question might be thought of as "cottage."

    Brad
  • Posted By: asdfffPosted By: joepubMiniatures games, if you count em.

    This is my second time around with Warhammer games. I went into it knowing I'd spend $200+ to have a small (400pt) army.
    I spent like $360.
    I never really understood this about miniature games. Why not just use proxies? Like copy and print out the pics from unit stat cards/blocks and stand then on some plastic clips? Wouldn't that decrease spending on rulebook + army to just rulebook + codex (essentially $50 - 60)?

    EDIT: As hobby gamers, our specialty skill is to pretend. Why not just go half a step further and pretend that printed stand-ups give just as much strategic gaming value as a fully-painted (and fully-priced) official mini?

    You know, when I see things like this, I'm reminded of all of the times as a kid or teen when I tried to explain rpgs to non-gamers. Inevitably, one of them would say something like "Well, why do you need rules and books to play Pretend?"

    Also, keep in mind that collectable minis games ( because of the random pack/rarity set-up) and Games Workshop Games and close imitators of that business plan ("what the market will bear" and so on) tend to be some of the most expensive ways to play games with miniatures. If you perceive those two as the median/norm for judging minis gaming, your whole idea about cost will be heavily skewed.
  • Posted By: Graham WThis thread is making me a little irritated. My calm, thought-out response is:

    The statements "Indie RPGs are cheap" and "Indie RPGs are expensive" are rhetoric.

    They are cheap if you compare them in one way. They are expensive if you compare them in another way.

    Graham
    And once again the value of E-Prime is demonstrated.
    Saying the "are" something is truly meaningless.
    Now, If I say, "Indie rpgs seem cheap to me because most cost 15 dollars or less per book than mainstream traditional rpgs and I get even more enjoyment out of them," this is meaningful. If I say, "Indie rpgs seem expensive to me because many are 20 dollars for a small book with a low page count and lots of white space," this is also meaningful. But just "They are cheap" and "They are expensive"? Meaningless.
  • edited August 2007
    Posted By: fnord3125
    And once again the value of E-Prime is demonstrated.
    Saying the "are" something is truly meaningless...
    Saying "they 'are' something IS truly meaningless," while touting the value of E-Prime seems to me to miss entirely the meaning of E-Prime.

    But hey, I count it no part of my bISness...Carry on...

    Brad
  • I never said I had mastered it, Brad. In fact, the first time I brought it up, I pointed out that I was a long, long away from completely removing "to be" from my vocabulary. The fact that I haven't mastered it in no shows that it is less valuable.
  • The conversation is slowly moving around the core concept (like a cat moving around a frightened mouse) that we all make purchases with an idea of value that is context-dependent, but assumes that for a given purchase, we want a certain value in return.

    * If we plan on reading the book or using for source material, page count may be a good yardstick though it is unlikely to be the only one. We'll probably compare to other RPGs of similar interest to us and look at page count and cost per page.

    * If we plan on playing this game often we may think of a cost per game session or per person; if we think this is a game with a low replay value or that we won't play it often, we may be stingier.

    * If we know many sourcebooks are associated with the line, we may find the book of more value (because there will be a lot of material available for use) or lower value (because it may require more purchases than we can budget.)

    Etc., etc. The question can then become, what do people who buy this book typically value in it? Among those who bought it, did people find they had obtained the value they were looking for? And if not, why? This can help target the sales and marketing of the book, and perhaps even the design of future editions or revisions.

    Overall, I find that these days I get more of what I'm looking for in self-contained story games than in any other type of game, whether RPG or other. But there are a startling number of games of the same description ("self-contained story games") that would be of low value to me, so clearly that would be an insufficient search criterion (though a useful filter in the search).
  • Posted By: fnord3125I never said I had mastered it, Brad. In fact, the first time I brought it up, I pointed out that I was a long, long away from completely removing "to be" from my vocabulary. The fact that I haven't mastered it in no shows that it is less valuable.
    Mastering E-Prime seems to me less important than the exercise of discovering just how deeply symbolic language colours our perceptions, and therefore experiences of reality. I agree with your assessment of its value, if perhaps on different grounds.

    It seems to me, Brian, that the bard himself fares no better under the harsh auspices of E-Prime. Hamlet’s Soliloquy, for instance, losses its sweet ring when phrased something akin to, “to exist, or not exist, that question weighs upon me.” How less sweet then does a rose smell in E-Prime?

    With a handle like yours [fnord] I’d hope you see the humor in all this…

    Brad
  • Oh absolutely. I once had the goal of completely removing forms of "to be" from my speech and writing, but I gave up. I don't really think that part of it is that important. What I do think is important is to be aware of when you are using words like "is" and "are" to state personal feelings and opinions as if they were fact and absolute law.

    Also, I don't much care for Shakespeare, regardless. I know this makes me somewhat strange, given that I'm an English major, but I really don't care. I can't stand the guy's stuff, his poems or his plays. Bleh. :)

    -brian
  • Posted By: AnemoneThe conversation is slowly moving around the core concept (like a cat moving around a frightened mouse) that we all make purchases with an idea of value that is context-dependent, but assumes that for a given purchase, we want a certain value in return.

    ...The question can then become, what do people who buy this book typically value in it? Among those who bought it, did people find they had obtained the value they were looking for? And if not, why? This can help target the sales and marketing of the book, and perhaps even the design of future editions or revisions.
    Now, this I think is the crux of the matter entirely, and something not lost on big box rpg. In my limited observations, and interactions with Indie Designers it is also something that I think Indie, and Small Press could learn better to employ for their own benefit, and benefit of their consumers. I also happen to think that it would make even bigger dents in "business as usual" work-a-day corp arrogance.

    Brad
  • edited August 2007
    Hi!

    A lot of people in this thread talked about the "cost" of a rpg session, comparing it against the cost of a Pizza or a movie. But this is a WRONG calculation, because, if this was not your FIRST rpg you brought, you would play IN ANY CASE, so you must count the price of playing this new game against the price of playing any one of your old games. And as you can see, this means that you will always found that you always pay more than the alternative.

    So, the question is, the enjoyment you will get from this new rpg, is bigger than the one you got from your old game? How much bigger?

    And, most important: how can you know this BEFORE buying it?

    We have these cases:

    1) "I thought that this would be worth it, but I played it and I don't think I will play again, I enjoy my other games more"
    2) "I thought that this would be worth it, and it was true!"
    3) "I don't want to risk buying it, it cost too much"

    What do I think? I think that the cost for trying new games is already so high (not because they cost too much one by one, but because there are so many of them) that people have almost stopped trying any unknown new indie game, and prefere to wait for a review, or an actual play thread. They can't afford to buy ten new games to discover that only one was good enough for them to be played. So they wait until they are sure, buy the game, and (having waited until they are sure) they usually get result 2.

    But result 2 is not the most common. The most common result, you see, is 3.

    If Indie rpgs were really "too cheap", I think we would see many more results "1", because people would be less afraid to try them. If you don't get a lot of complain for the "1" it mean that nobody risk buying your game without checking all the review and the actual play, because they don't trust you for that amount of money.

    [and remember that the "cost" of trying a new rpg is not only in the money. What about the time to read and memorize the book, and the prep time? Time is valuable to working people...)

    You game is too cheap or too expensive? Well, the meaning of that question can change. Only you can decide how much your work is worth, so if you think that you don't want people to play your game without paying you amount X, it's your right to do so and nobody can blame you.

    If instead you see the other meaning of that question, as "what price I must choose to get people to buy my game", and you discover that people didn't think that your game was worth X, it's not because they are cheap bastard. Why they should have trusted you to give them a better playing experience than the games they already have like MLWM, PTA, InSpectres, BW or DitV?

    I spend an insane amount of money in rpgs every year. Most of what I brought until a few years ago was crap, not worth even the time to read it. So I now buy only games from the forge community. I still spend an insane amount of money, but at least I finance innovation and not the same old crap. I buy many more games that I could ever play. So, I don't get my money's worth from a lot of games, but it's a risk I want to take. Buying a lot of games to find between them the ones i like (so, at the end I really pay twice the price for any one of them that I play). But still I don't buy all the indie games published. The cost would be too high.

    So, what do I buy? Well, if you are Ron Edwards or Vincent Baker or Paul Czege or one of the others that I buy sigh-unseen don't worry, I'll buy it. If you are not one of them, try to make me read enthusiastic actual plays and glowing recension written by intelligent and articolare reviewers. If you can't get that, you last chance is to cost so little to get me to try you anyway.

    The moral? "Cheap" take different meaning (and values), and the right price for Dogs in the Vineyard could not be the right price for your new and unknown game....
  • I read a number of voices here saying something to the tune of “value for the money is a subjective opinion.” If I’m reading some of those correctly a few are also saying “subjective price value cannot be measured because it means something different to everyone.” Yes, it does mean something different to many people, but it can, and is in fact routinely measured accurately enough to influence business decisions.

    Price Value Ratings are a statistically sound metric in the marketing research industry, and they are derived from the subjective opinions of everyday people, and narrowly selected study groups alike. All sorts of sources can be used to determine the opinions of the consuming public, and any statistically viable sample can then be analyzed nine ways from Sunday. What companies choose to do with this information is the rub.

    Brad
  • After thinking about this a while, I have to admit I don't have any RPGs that I've ever played or even torn apart to use in play that were too expensive.
  • Levelled against books in other genres? FUCK YES.

    I consistently get more value for my money, in terms of cost/fun ratio and in terms of cost/production value ratio, from cookbooks than RPGs. Cookbooks are not even remotely inexpensive! But I have yet to see something as expressive, as crafted, as successful in the RPG arena as, say, How to be a Domestic Goddess or Arabesque are in cookbookland.

  • edited September 2007
    They aren't really games but, rather, supplements -- the Wilderlands of High Fantasy box set and DCC #35 (both of which I enjoy immensely) seem to have a pretty steep buy-in price for what they actually contain, IMO. The Wilderlands boxed set, for example, is largely maps and keyed encounters with little in the way of rules or actual setting fluff (past some reprinted history from the Player's Guide). In the end, the Player's Guide actually proved to be a far more useful product for me and it costs about 1/3 the retail price of the box set. Similarly, DCC #35 gave me about as much info as most $34 hardcover setting books do -- but it set me back an additional $40.
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