if this kind of thing works for kickstarter, i may have cured polio…



  • It's worked in the past! Heads of State was a nine game indie collection that funded successfully.

  • Too confusing for me I'm afraid, and no UK shipping is a non-starter. Will watch out for them when they're published though.

    Had forgotten about Heads of State. Must remember to look out for it.
  • Was Witch: The Road to Lindisfarme an inspiration for "The Witch"?

    It's something I'll keep an eye on, but alas, $20/pop for a PDF is a little too steep without more details.
  • Yeah, I'm a completionist, so I'd want all the PDFs, but you aren't going to get me to pay $100 for six mini-games. I mean, I did the Octo thing, and that was $40 for 8 mini games, plus it all went to charity.
  • edited July 2013
    well. let's hope when the stretch goals start popping up things change for everyone.

    semajamharg? you want a hardcopy shipped to the UK? you know that's expensive, right? it's also on the page. the $250 isn't available, but the $50 level ships to the UK. so. not sure what you are seeing.

  • i don't know what octo thing is. but these are 60-100 page games.

    *checks document for use of the word mini*
  • @jim pinto: Hey, you've got your funding - there's no need to get snarky.

    I'm sorry I missed the levels with non-US shipping amidst the sea of ones without. For reference though a) I dare say I am more painfully aware of the costs of US shipping than you are, and b) that's about double what I'd expect to pay based on past Kickstarters I've backed.

    I'd also expect to pay about half that for a PDF. If it had been $50 for six games I'd probably have taken a punt.

    But clearly other people's mileage varies and I'm pleased you're going to make it. Like I say, I'll look out for them when they're published.
  • Octo: Games of Spring. Clarification: I didn't see a page count, sorry. Regardless, for example, Fiasco, a complete GMless game is in print for ca. $25, no? Why would I pay $18+ for each of these, in an electronic format, with no printing or shipping overhead? Also, weird math on the three-game one means it's actually slightly more per game for 3 games than for 2.
  • Was Witch: The Road to Lindisfarme an inspiration for "The Witch"?
    It does sound very similar to Witch (TRtL), when I say similar I mean exactly the same.
    I'd be interested to see what it looks like.


    Kevin (Pompey Crew Design)

  • If I'm reading this correctly half of these games are unfinished.

    I'm always really hesitant to support RPG projects that are half finished. Kickstarting the funds to produce and distribute a game makes sense to me and seems fairly low risk, but Kickstarting the funds to design stuff seems much more risky, both for creator and supporter. It seems to me that if you know exactly how long it takes to design a game you are content to publish a bad game when time runs out if that's what happens.
  • jason,

    fair enough. the games are done. the writing is not. i have over 50 published books, so i'm not really too worried about hitting my deadlines. especially since these are PDFs. but if you want, just back the one that sounds interesting AND is finished.
  • edited July 2013
    i can see user clone is going to be a detractor for this project. so. let's make this the last of our little tet-a-tet

    19 + 19 + 19 = 57. you save $2 by buying 2 or 3 at once buying all six at once, gets you essentially one free PDF. if you check the stretch goals, you'll see that more free PDFs follow when the project gets funded more.

    comparing the cost of a printed, already funded book to a kickstarter value shows me how many kickstarters you've run. i know how much time i have to spend doing every aspect of this. i know what my time is worth and so on. if you don't like the games, i respect your desire not to buy one. but it's 18 hours old and already funded. so, clearly someone likes my dumb ideas.


    i don't know what TRtL is, either. *looks up on google*

    wow. similar. but not exacting. this looks pretty good. *purchased*

    edit: typos.
  • Jim you are really not doing yourself any favors with these replies.
  • edited July 2013
    Good luck with the project, Jim. You have had a rather chilly reception here! I understand the reasons, but I do think you're being honest: you're telling people exactly what they're going to get for what price.

    Don't underestimate the energy it'll take to publish these things as the year goes on. I remember Troy Costisick had a similar scheme, which seemed to lose momentum as time passed, with delivery dates getting later. Being funded upfront can do weird things to your motivation.

    Hope it goes well.
  • edited July 2013
    thanks, graham. i know all too well the momentum problem. luckily the first three are all 75% or more completed (and already in graphics). hopefully through updates and open dialog with backers, i can keep interest up. the witch is the only one that i'm nervous about.

    jason. i appreciate your perspective. there's a difference between me engaging in a dialog about expectations… yeah george's children is a chilling and gritty game about hopelessness and hope at the same time. people who really get into it, love it. i've run it so many times and i never get sick of it. vs. "you're charging me more than i want to pay." i'm sure there's a nicer tone i could use, but then, there's a nicer tone everyone could use.

    i'm making six games that i really want to make. if people want to get involved now. great. that's the whole point of the patronage system of kickstarter. i'm making the games anyway.
  • I think it's fine to say: "here's the value of my work. it's high. pay if you like or don't."

    And of course, you're under no responsibility to do anything more than that.

    But as a fan of gm-less games, I'd be much more likely to support, if I had much of an idea beyond theme what the games were. If you've got previews, or actual play reports, or excerpts, those would all help solidify an idea of what these games are.
  • james. excellent point. since it's six games in one. the page is an over view. and each day i intend to update more and more information about the games more specifically. keep watching the page. as the KS goals improve, more rewards and freebies unlock as well. i like to run an interactive KS, but that requires people to show up and look around.
  • Cool, looking forward to checking the KS some more.
  • I concur with James_Stuart: it's actually a good thing to say "I think these games are worth $20 for a PDF. If you don't think so, nobody's forcing you to pay for them."

    But right now that's not what I'm hearing from you. You're coming across as "I think these games are worth $20 for a PDF, and you're a negative nelly who doesn't understand Kickstarter if you disagree."

    When you're doing creative work, there are two basic models for getting paid. One is to create something that is of such high value to the moneyed that you can recoup costs and make some profit by selling copies at high prices to comparatively few patrons. The other is to create something that is of reasonable value to so many people that you can recoup costs by selling copies at lower prices to comparatively many patrons.

    Your principal marketing problem right now is that you've chosen a model closer to the former, and arguing with people who are accustomed a model closer to the latter. And your secondary problem is that (though the pitches are all clear as to theme and style) there's no real indication on the Kickstarter page of what you get for the price: which means that the concrete evidence you could use to convince people of your arguments is only in your head.

    A few suggestions: provide page/word counts for the games that are done, and projected page/word counts for those that aren't. If you have Actual Play reports, link to those -- if you're in the layout stage for some of these, you should be able to get some of your blind playtesters to write a report, no? It sounds like there might be a core system underlying all of these games, that you've tweaked for each of them - is there any chance you could make a stripped-down, bare-bones version of that available, maybe only for backers?

    Because all of these sound interesting, and some of them sound *really* interesting, and they may well be worth $20 for a PDF or $40ish for a softcover, but there's really not enough information on that page for me to make that conclusion either way. Maybe this is something you're planning to do over time, in which case I'll shut up and be glad I starred the project and I'll check in when Kickstarter says "48 hours left!"
  • edited July 2013
    I've paid $10-20 for PDF copies of games on kickstarter, to receive games that could be fit entirely on three pages (in one case, a single notecard!). So when I see "A bunch of games, currently in the planning stage!" I immediately assume that they will all be *maybe* 6-10 pages of hippie feely bullshit with a large font, huge whitespace margins, and maybe some die or card gimmick, maybe tested once for 45 minutes with some close friends all giving the designer uncritical feedback.

    So you might want to give a clearer impression on the project page as to the length/detail of the project.

    But yeah, I'm with Jason: It's hard for me to back ideas, these days I'm more into the "Hey this is complete, playtested, verified, and I just need money to make it physical/pretty/complete" side of things with almost zero exception. But you're funded, so it's a moot point! I'll definitely check it out when it's out, there are some cool-looking ideas in there.
  • fair enough guys.

    i'm a little confused how the page paints it as 3-page hippie gaming. it's 6 games, and it's blast overview. research shows that a small % of people read the entire page of a kickstarter. so the converse of too much information also scares people away. as i do more updates, i will keep all this in mind. my track record shows that i do large books. my previous two kickstarters were 372 pages and 256 pages, plus cards. and my third KS was 400 cards. so, even at 60 pages each, this is 360 pages of material.

    that right there is a slogan.

  • edited July 2013
    Jim, I backed King for a Day partly based on it being advertised as 200 pages. It was definitely a factor. (My actual thought process was: "Fifty bucks now, and then at some point in the future, two hundred pages of horror adventure will show up like Christmass? Fuck yeah, sounds good.")

    Based on my experience, I'd put page number estimates up-front.
  • edited July 2013
    johnstone. you ended up getting 360+ pages of adventure. were you satisfied with the extra pages? :)

    page updated. message received.
  • Yes, I was!
  • Jim, I backed King for a Day partly based on it being advertised as 200 pages. It was definitely a factor. (My actual thought process was: "Fifty bucks now, and then at some point in the future, two hundred pages of horror adventure will show up like Christmass? Fuck yeah, sounds good.")
    That sounds fairly awesome!

    Jim, is King for a Day available in PDF format for sale somewhere? I couldn't find it.
  • Andy. It is available on drive thru rpg. Or you can buy the book and pdf directly from me (I have about 50 printed copies left).

    postworldgames.com is my site, btw
  • I should chime in. Jim sucks at self-promotion. He should have led with his story, which is: he's a badass. He's been making games professionally for fifteen years, he's been nominated for an Origins award, won an Ennie, and he art-directs as well; his books and cards look beautiful. He's done a few Kickstarters so he knows the deal.

    This one's a bit different and weird in that he's using Kickstarter like a storefront to let you get involved in six different products. I realize now that creates the impression that he's going to shit these games out but I've played some of them and they're done. I highly recommend both *George's Children* and *Forget Me Not*.

  • haha. jamie speaks truth. i would say i love you, but that eliminates the bad-ass moniker.
  • Today's update is about Dying Memoryes, with a character sheet and everything.

  • I'd have to agree that Jim sucks at self-promotion, for reals. But I had a great time playing Monogatari and have always wanted to try George's Children.
  • he's right. jim sucks.

  • Jim, cool. There's a whole lot of info here that I wasn't getting from your KS page, so there was definitely the impression that maybe you'd play tested one or two of these a few times and were prepared to shit out several more at twenty bucks a pop. That doesn't seem to be the case. However, if you look at my Kickstarter profile, I've backed circa 350 projects. I think I probably have more experience with Kickstarter pricing than you do, PDF or no. Regardless, I thought the price on your fantasy tool cards was reasonable and this seems less so to me. So there we are and happy publishing.
  • Backed! I do think that some tweaks to the pricing strategy could have gotten more of my money, but I'm in.
  • edited July 2013
    userclone and noclue

    i have five days in, and i've already offered one freebie

    as well as samples of what is going into these games

    i have a different plan with this KS than people like this:

    http://geekdad.com/2013/07/kickstarter-is-broken/ who run off with people's money

    i want to make these feel special. yes. $19 for a pdf is a lot of money. yes $100 for six is a lot of money. yes. free pdfs thrown on top of these investments takes the sting away. as does personalized products. and cards. and your name in the credits. and being involved with updates for the next six months as the games get closer and closer to completion.

    as for the level of info, just how much data do you think a main page should dump on people? my personal thinking is keep it simple as i've had people not read something completely before.

  • i think kickstarter is as much backing a person as it is an idea.
  • Update about Forget-Me-Not, including one of the 12 characters living in the town of Northern Falls.


    Here's some information on my website about the game:

  • edited July 2013
    Oh, I'm not complaining. I think there are some tweaks to the pricing strategy that would encourage backers to move up to the middle tiers. But that's just a pricing decision. I'm not concerned about the quality of the final product.
  • Update on Monogatari, with a new piece of art.

    Coming soon, an overview of the opening scenario for Monogatari.

  • Just way too expensive. Easily twice the price I would be willing to pay on every item. Especially for a PDF.
  • I don't think it's productive to keep attacking Jim's pricing. It's starting to sound entitled and petty. Jim has clearly heard at this point that folks wish he'd offered a lower price point. There's no need to put that message on loop.
  • Jim, have you had a chance to read Witch: the Road to Lindisfarne yet? I saw you mention that you were buying yourself a copy. I'd love to know how The Witch differs from it, seeing as both are 4-6 player, GMless, structured-act one-shots about an imprisoned witch being escorted by a group of clergy and guards to her trial for witchcraft. The similarity between the two is striking, and I want to know what makes them different.
  • I guess I'm the odd man out, having nothing to offer here but a drizzle of honey. I like it. It's honest, it says "you receive good work if you want to pay my price," and as far as I can tell, Jim walks away with money he doesn't instantly have to fling into the ether. And that's a good thing.
    Best, Ron
  • Jim, have you had a chance to read Witch: the Road to Lindisfarne yet? I saw you mention that you were buying yourself a copy. I'd love to know how The Witch differs from it, seeing as both are 4-6 player, GMless, structured-act one-shots about an imprisoned witch being escorted by a group of clergy and guards to her trial for witchcraft. The similarity between the two is striking, and I want to know what makes them different.
    Echo this. I've played several games of Witch: tRtL here in the UK, and reading through the description of Witch I'd be hard-pressed to put a cigarette paper between them.
  • I already designed my game before I ever heard of the Road to Lindisfarne. I think the differences will be a deck of cards in mine, generic characters with more replay value, and perhaps my own point of view on what I like to see in a GMless game. But I will say there's a great deal more overlap than I would like. I've only read the other one, though and not played it yet. I am not a fan of his typography if that's any indication of my goals with my project.

    And mine won't be 12 pages long.

    Noclue. More stretch goals coming.
  • Hey you can't fault the guy. It's an excellent subject matter. I'm interested in how he delivers the different layers of how the players prejudices affect how the story turns out.

    A young woman chained and bound being delivered to her ultimate death by a group of men.

    Clergy members pushing their agendas against discraced crusaders.

    Supernatural fears against the scientific threat of the plague.

    Naive youth versus aged cynicism.

    I could go on but the explanation behind the design isn't as fun as playing the game itself.

    12 pages of pure gold ;-)

    Good luck Jim all the best mate.

  • edited August 2013
    it looks fantastic. no fault at all. i'm a little jealous and i wish i'd know before i added it to my KS, project. he's taking a more historic approach. and i'm going a route that actually allows for the supernatural. hopefully i can match his dark tone. mine also doesn't have a specified route.
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