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Posted By: JohnstoneThe two issues represented in this article that I have a problem with are:1. Character vs. character activity and other socially-unacceptable-in-real-life behaviour in the game is great and you don't need to discuss it with players, even when they complain about it.2. It's also great when sexual agendas are played out in the game, and you don't need to discuss whether anyone is comfortable with this or not.It's the blatant lack of any sort of discussion between himself and the players about the game that I think is a bad message to send out. So yes, I am going to "take that out on Holmes." He's the one who wrote the article.
Posted By: jhkimI think people's reactions will tend to have to do with their own experiences with such early games - as well as how they view those games of their youth now. What people call "red flags" are really ways that this resembles experiences they now view as problematic.
Posted By: StephaniePeggit's pretty easy to find internet accounts of sexual hazing that's targeted at female players in roleplaying groups, particularly when they're teenagers, and particularly when they're interacting with teenage boys. It's not always rainbows, y'know?
The sexual innuendos of my teenage Dungeons & Dragons game did not become manifest until my players reached their adolescent growth spurt. Before that, the game was all hack, slash, loot, pillage, and burn. Later, characters began to get interested in sex and, eventually, marriage.
Posted By: Zak Suntil I read Ron Edwards essay (2 years ago? 3?) about his experiences with people who are totally dedicated to D&D but hated it and never had any fun the existence of people that play and simultaneously do not enjoy the game was unknown to me. If you didn't like it, you left, period.(And Istillhave never met these people in real life.)
Posted By: Zak SAre you saying I'm lying about my experience?Please answer that question because you have not made your point unless you think I am lying.
Though--again--the idea that your RPG people put the same economic pressure on you to do what they want you to do as a family is alien to me. Though I'm sure it's possible--it just does not match my experience.
Posted By: JoelDear Vernon, JD, Stephanie, Paul, Kira, Joe, and Johnstone:a timely piece of advice.
Posted By: Zak SWould you say that the lack of disclaimers in J Eric Holmes AP might be because he did not assume that matters of seduction reported publicly in a popular magazine in 1980 were going to be assumed to be problematic and he might have included such disclaimers had he known they would be?
Basically the interpretation:"We have no idea what these games were really like or whether Holmes was an ass"seems the only rational conclusion anyone can draw from this article.
Posted By: Zak SOr, in your much more aggressive, over-reachy and extreme language, he does not:" believe in listening to the players:"" believe in allowing all characters equal agency in sexual matters instead of forcing it on the woman's character:"
Posted By: Paul T.It's interesting how some people are interpreting this paragraph as:* This is an older dude with a bunch of young teens "acting out" on each other, and creating weird uncomfortable situations without any prior discussion of what they want out of the game. This girl is being bullied, basically.And some people are, rather, assuming:* This is a group of mature people who tackle love, marriage, and sexuality openly in their games, and I'm sure they have discussed this kind of issue in the past and enjoy dealing with it in play.I don't see a ton of evidence for either side, frankly, based on that single snippet above and the anecdote about the naga.The thing that bothers me, I suppose, is that there's no mention of that particular moment or exchange being afun thing.
Posted By: jhkimThe GM does demand that there beachance of seduction, but he accepts what the player says as the odds...
Posted By: Zak SSo, I am asking the Holmes-Is-An-Ass/Holmes-Is-Unconscously-Sexist people posting on this thread:If I write it out, will you read it and respond to it, or will you not?
Posted By: JDCorleyI will see you in Sto'Vo'Kor!!!
Posted By: JDCorleyI don't get it. I just read what the guy did and he acted like an ass. He didn't listen to the player who said "nope, I'm a virgin"and he didn't impose the same standards on both characters. I know this because he said it. He was an ass. What's so hard to understand?
Posted By: Vernon RPeople are seeing signs of sexism and I can bet there is a good chance they'd see signs of it in a ton of articles written 30 years ago about any number of activities. As someone said it was a different time.
Posted By: Zak S"We have no idea what these games were really like or whether Holmes was an ass"seems the only rational conclusion anyone can draw from this article.
Posted By: Vernon RIf you've said your character is pure then who is the gm to argue that unless the player had acted in a different way in the past? Having a roll for it seems like a jerk move on the DM's part, next things the idiots in the party will be clammering about male prostitutes and making the character homosexual with a fetish for kobolds or some other craziness if the DM starts making characters roll anything someone suggests.
Posted By: Simon CTaking an argument about what someonesaid, and turning it into an argument about who someoneis.