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    • CommentAuthorhowandwhy99
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009 edited
     # 1
    I was curious, are there any non-fiction indie RPGs on the market or in production? Games that are based on the real world to teach a role? Stuff like the Apollo 13 Rescue Exercise, Model United Nations, SimSoc, or even ones from the ICONS Project. Reality-based role playing where adherence to the truth of what's actually going on, the roles being taught, is the primary concern. I know most RPGs are considered fictional or, in the non-literary genre sense, fantasy, i.e. not the real world, but I'm hoping not everyone is into escaping reality.

    I have a crazy belief that the addictive quality of role playing can be geared towards learning about things that actually relate to and occur in the real world. And that through role play we can improve our real world abilities and relations rather than escape them. I'd like to see more games (exercises?) along the "non-fictional" side of things, but I just don't know what is out there in the gaming community. Any help?
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 2
    There have been a few proposals, but nothing finished, as far as I know.

    Emily Care Boss has used Eero Tuovinen's Zombie Cinema to "sim" the Iraq war. It was largely still narrative in nature, not really non-fiction in the "documentary" or "history book" sense, but I think that's largely based on how roleplaying is traditionally structured, playing characters and what not. For example, I played a Blackwater security contractor who was trying to protect a convoy while other folks played US soldiers at checkpoints, NGO relief personnel, Iraqi small businessmen, etc. It was definitely intended primarily as an educational and advocacy (of engagement with ongoing events, not a specific political perspective) game. Jason Morningstar's Grey Ranks operates pretty much in the same territory, though about a historical conflict and with more explicitly narrative components in the mechanics. He wants play of Grek Ranks to create an interesting story, which isn't really the case in the way Em runs "A Day in the War." Em, Eero, and I have had discussions about creating a more general version of the Zombie Cinema engine to cover global conflicts, but nothing has yet resulted.

    I wrote a short Dogs in the Vineyard hack about the 2008 Tibetan unrest last year, inspired by what Em was doing. It hasn't been played, as far as I know. I also have a couple of Cold City/Hot War hacks in development that are meant to explore two conflicts in which chemical and biological weapons were actually used (by South Africa's Project Coast in Angola / Namibia and by the Japanese Unit 731 in North China), but those may be a bit more narrative in nature than what you have in mind.

    I don't yet know of any roleplaying games that intend to teach actual skills or knowledge (aside from awareness of historical or current events). Jason Morningstar's upcoming game Medical Hospital is focused on creating the feel of TV medical shows, not actually teaching you anatomy, though I guess that could happen on the side.
    •  
      CommentAuthorMatthijs
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 3
    A lot of games use history as a backdrop. Does that count...? Or are you talking about real-world contemporary situations?

    There was a Danish scenario some years ago, IIRC, about the hostage situation in Russia where a bunch of Tchetchnyans held some Russians hostage in a theatre/cinema.
  1.  # 4
    Here's a link for U.S. military simulations. (link) Basically everything on there from Major Field Exercises to Map Exercises includes role playing (conscious role playing, not the kind we do every minute of the day).

    The games don't have to specifically be for definite later real world adoption, like teaching the position of grocery check out clerk by pretending to be a customer, but hypothetical real world adoption counts too. The military often teaches roles through role playing scenarios that potentially may occur. Since the trainees need to be ready for action, adherence to reality is a must.

    I'm not looking for historical re-enactment. I'm looking at improving people's real abilities for potential future real world role playing (unconscious) Think doctor training through role playing versus playing Grey's Anatomy.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 5
    David, I work for a foreign policy think-tank that does a lot of contract work for the US government, so I have some experience with the kinds of military sims you are talking about, but it's mostly been on the "grand strategy" side of things, not the smaller scale games that they do for military officers. My sense of the larger scale games, and I think many of my colleagues would agree, is that they are not all that useful. One of my office's specific missions is to help the US get better at Red Team analysis (note for the uninitiated: the Blue Team is traditionally the US, the Red Team is the other side) because most sims do a lot of mirror imaging and have, say, China act exactly like the US would act, but with a different set of resources (no aircraft carriers, etc.). I definitely think roleplaying -- and specifically the kinds of techniques and structures that have been developed in the Forge-influenced indie RPG scene in the past 10 years -- could be very helpful in making these games better by creating more nuanced rules and incentive structures that better replicate cultural differences, individual personality differences, and the like. The US government and its various departments spend a ton of money every year on these games, but my sense is that the folks designing and running them are either not familiar with other kinds of design tools that they could draw from or, if they are involved in hobby roleplaying (and lots of folks in the military are, for example), don't transfer those skills and tools over to their day job.

    So yeah, if you're specifically interested in military / grand strategy sims, I have a lot I could potentially say on that subject, but, no, I don't think any work is specifically being done on that kind of thing in hobby roleplaying, at least that I know of. Then again, it's possible that something is out there, since there's stuff happening all over the place that I don't know about.
    • CommentAuthorMel White
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 6
    My brother, Bill White, and Dave Petroski have put some effort into a game called 'Persuaders', which is intended to be a game for the classroom in which the students take on the roles of advertising and marketing executives and personnel. I've posted a couple of actual play audio files at the internet archive here: Persuaders I found it pretty entertaining.
    Mel
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 7
    By definition, role-playing games are fictional, even the ones you cite, because you make stuff up.

    There are plenty of non-fantastic indie RPGs (Spione, breaking the ice, etc.) But they're still fictional. You kinda ... can't get around the fictionality.

    yrs--
    --Ben
    •  
      CommentAuthorMatthijs
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 8
    Posted By: Jonathan WaltonSo yeah, if you're specifically interested in military / grand strategy sims, I have a lot I could potentially say on that subject


    I hope you do! If not in this thread, then perhaps a new one?
    •  
      CommentAuthorGraham
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 9
    We use roleplay simulations for training and recruitment. I've mentioned before, have I, that I'm a professional roleplayer? The word "roleplayer" means something slightly different in my work context, but not too different.

    Graham
  2.  # 10
    You might also look at Barnard's Reacting to the Past program.

    I think there's an interesting place for "stealth pedagogy" in roleplaying games, but it doesn't seem like that's what you are after.
    • CommentAuthorhowandwhy99
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009 edited
     # 11
    Jonathan Walton,
    I'd love to hear about your opinions on the Field Exercises. It sounds like you are saying the exercises are not helping the soldiers for when they actually are put in the similar real world situations. Do you think this is because of the characterization of the Red Team? To me, role playing is rehearsal. The more you practice, the better you get. But if there are other people in the rehearsal that don't act like others would in the real world, then it isn't as helpful. (Like the practice squad in a football scrimmage/role play not acting like the upcoming Sunday opponent). I'm not talking about character role play, but social role: role play. Role training. For instance, how to help people be better doctors, not how to act like Dr. House. :)

    Mel White,
    Looks very cool. I'm downloading it now. Thanks.

    Ben Lehman,
    I'm not trying to split hairs. Most RPGs aren't role playing games at all in my opinion as role playing used to commonly be thought of as playing a role in life, the hats we wear as we change our behaviors. Now it has become more a reference to acting: acting out a conscious portrayal a fictional character. A person doesn't need to be consciously aware of playing a social role, so as I understand it role playing isn't synonymous with theatre acting. I'm talking about roles which exist within our own social reality, not a simulated one. Where the two overlap, rehearsing a real world role like giving a speech to your mirror, is the kind of game I'm looking for. But it has to be relevant to real world roles (what I'm calling non-fiction) or the rehearsal won't help in the real world role playing, the non-acting performance of the role.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009 edited
     # 12
    David, the "grand strategy" exercises that I'm familiar with mainly involve non-military, non-governmental consultants (like people from my office) and folks from various other offices associated with the Pentagon, the State Dept, etc. If there are soldiers participating, they're typically officers with desk jobs, not folks who will be commanding units directly out in the field. These are folks who will be responsible for looking at what potential adversaries are doing and advising top-ranking civilian and military leaders about what the appropriate course of action is. The main problem, as I see it, is that the actual adversaries the US potentially faces out in the real world don't act very much like they are depicted in these sims. That might not be as much of a problem in small scale, unit-based sims, because you still get to practice, y'know, managing a conflict and ordering troops around and such. But the entire point of the "grand strategy" exercises is to practice interacting with difficult situations that might actually happen in the world and that's undercut by an inadequate understanding of how other, non-American folks in the real world actually operate. That said, I have not yet been one of the principle folks participating in one of these sims, though I have talked extensively to folks who have and may potentially be invited to one this summer. Hopefully then I'll have a better sense of things and be able to talk more authoritatively.

    NOTE: I am explicitly not talking about field exercises in which you actually move soldiers and equipment around. That's way beyond my level. I'm talking about abstract games that are played out by talking in conference rooms at hotels.
  3.  # 13
    I've heard of Grand Strategy games in reference to hobby wargames, like Axis & Allies, but this sounds like something different. I'm not finding it on the link I gave before. bit it definitely sounds like a military simulation. I agree, acting in the personality of the opponent you potentially would face would increase the potential validity of the exercise. What elements do you think Forge games and theory could add to them? Aren't there psychologist and such studying potential enemies to better help those folks playing the Red Team?

    This does sound like the kind of thing I'm looking for, but I am probably not narrowing what I want enough. This is great and interesting, but it doesn't sound useful to the majority of people who might buy a nonfiction RPG. The four I listed in the opening post all have limited applicability too as they are all pretty specific to a narrow role in society. Something more like the educational role playing exercises, where students have to take care of an egg as if it were their child, is more in the vein I am thinking of. But I would like to add game elements of tracked accomplishments, reputation, awarding of roles in group, etc. I know there are role play training exercises done in schools focusing on all sorts of stuff.
    • CommentAuthorJ. Walton
    • CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2009
     # 14
    I think you want to talk to Graham and Bill White then.

    Posted By: howandwhy99Aren't there psychologist and such studying potential enemies to better help those folks playing the Red Team?

    Lordy, I hope so.

    What elements do you think Forge games and theory could add to them?

    You want the list? Keys (from The Shadow of Yesterday) or another form of "win conditions" or goals that vary between players but can also be changed during play, depending on the context. The insight from Fallout (Dogs in the Vineyard) that small scale conflicts can be valuable learning experiences, not things to be avoided, but small scale conflicts can easily blossom into bigger ones. Also, ritualized escalation / negotiation / deescalation (from Dogs & Polaris). Resource management techniques from a variety of different games. Endgame mechanics from the My Life With Master-inspired tradition of "countdown" games. I could go on and on.
    • CommentAuthorMJ Harnish
    • CommentTimeFeb 7th 2009 edited
     # 15
    Posted By: Mel WhiteMy brother, Bill White, and Dave Petroski have put some effort into a game called 'Persuaders', which is intended to be a game for the classroom in which the students take on the roles of advertising and marketing executives and personnel. I've posted a couple of actual play audio files at the internet archive here:PersuadersI found it pretty entertaining.
    Mel

    Cool! I take it you were inspired by the Frontline episode - I use it in my Intro to Psych class as part of teaching conformity and social influence. I need to check out the game to see if I can use it as a classroom exercise to follow up the video. Any chance your brother would be willing to send me a copy if I ask really politely?
  4.  # 16

    I have been having a tough time making "The Persuaders" work in the classroom. The core of the game works fairly well; players create "ad campaigns" by using the motifs from a randomly dealt hand of cards as prompts for the product -- "Hmm . . . a luxury item related to masculinity: penis extender?" -- and then coming up with snippets of ad content and ideas for media placement. The communication majors in my "Advertising Regulation & Ethics" class think that's fun once they get it, finally. But the larger context -- the one that would let me bring up issues of professionalism and ethics -- is difficult to pin down. I've thrown out the notion of "character creation," in the sense that players don't really generate alter egos for the game. But I think I've gone too far the other way, so I need to redress that imbalance. The next time I run the game in class will be Fall 2010, so I have time to think about it. MJ, if you want to see what I have, I'd love to hear feedback and suggestions; whisper me an e-mail and I'll send off the current version.

  5.  # 17

    I'd propose that, in order to get around the dilemma Ben posits, you consider the non-fictional part of the game to be situation generation. If there are historical facts that come about irrespective of the players' actions (weather, the years-long scheming of a rival coming to fruition, war entering your borders when you're just a simple baker...), then those could happen in some programmatic way.

    I think it's interesting to look at it from a "What would I do?" or a "What kind of world would these decisions make sense in? "perspective.