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Games and Gaming: [Rifts] Hack What?

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  1.  # 1
    In another forum somewhere, someone said this:

    "I've often heard people talk about how much they hate RIFTS the RPG, but really like the concept behind it. Having played through several games of RIFTS as a kid I compiled a laundry list of gripes, complaints, and examples of just how broken the game was. And yet the idea of strapping on a suit of power armor to go hunt down a dragon that was terrorizing the local farmers has always kept me coming back."

    I don't have any experience with Rifts, and have heard of it mostly as the butt of jokes. I've also heard the system is totally trashy and broken. Assuming these things are true, what would be a good game to hack to fit the epic gonzoness that Rifts lays down on the table?
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      CommentAuthornoclue
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     # 2
    I would suggest FATE
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009 edited
     # 3
    I grew up playing lots and lots of Rifts. If I was going to run it now, I'd use Agon, Mouse Guard, or Apocalypse World. Thing is, though, there are so many different facets of Rifts that any individual campaign concept might best be represented by a completely different indie game.

    P.S. Wormwood 4 ever. Best supplement of all time.
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      CommentAuthorBWA
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     # 4
    I played a lot of Palladium games back in the day too - Rifts, Ninjas & Superspies, Beyond the Supernatural, and lots of TMNT. Mystic China is still one of my all-time favorite game books (I used it in a game yesterday).

    The system is pretty lame, especially in hindsight. It's sort of like an arbitrary grab-bag of 1st Edition D&D rules. It has no elegance at all, which I don't mind if the sub-systems are cool, but they're not especially.

    But ... Palladium games are crammed full of ideas - setting, color, characters, etc. D&D and Shadowrun were cool, but Palladium was a totally different animal. It was all like "Hey! Look at all this stuff! It all goes together, whether it should or not!" That's pretty awesome.

    System matters, but its not the only thing that matters.
    • CommentAuthorNojh
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     # 5
    Yeah. I collected a lot of Rifts books just for the ideas and stories involved more than the system. I do remember reading an interview a long time ago with some of the designers of the Palladium system. The only thing I really remember was two design ideas they had: 1) They wanted the characters to have almost all of their power upfront. The leveling system gives almost no advantages (if I remember right) because of it. 2) They were highly aware that the game has MASSIVE power drift but certain things were supposedly immune from that: The Glitterboy power armor had to be the most powerful combat power armor available and any attempts to copy it had to be lacking.

    Felt like sharing that might be useful for anyone considering porting it to another system.

    I remember coming across an attempt to port rifts to another system on the net a few years ago. I tried looking for the link but I couldn't seem to find it.

    Also there are aspects of the system I rather like. MDC and SDC are both very interesting from a game and narrative standpoint. The fact that magic really is more powerful than technology simply because a wizard can throw up a 100 MDC shield that takes several Coalition infantry rounds to take down... and then the spellcaster just throws up another one.

    It basically boils down to life is really unfair for humans and technology when compared to DBes and there is a reason why the Coalition was losing (last time I read the books, I think there was some war where spell casters got their butts kicked in the last few books? Yeah?)

    I think what I mean to say is that there is some level of emergent theme/experience in the rules of Rifts even though it isn't a very good simulation RPG or even really a fun game if play strictly by the rules.

    I do remember having a lot of fun making characters and choosing skills, OCCs, and the like. The character generation system seemed to provoke a lot of "'Well in order to have to skill, I probably have this kind of back story".

    To answer your question: I don't really know. Running the story almost any system would do, recreating the emergent play with rules that are actually fun to play nothing comes to mind immediately. Plus there are always disagreements about what emergent play was fun and what wasn't. (For example I have a friend or two who hates the concept of MDC vs SDC vs HP).
  6.  # 6
    For those of you who love the crazy stuff in Rifts: how important is it for the system to give it different mechanical weight? I assume plain narrative dfferences between a Ray gun and a sword just wouldn't cut it, right?
    • CommentAuthorJDCorley
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     # 7
    I think the Burning Wheel system would be a good Rifts match, especially if you had a super-detailed character burner like the one in Burning Empires. That would provide the different mechanical weight necessary.
    • CommentAuthorvulpinoid
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     # 8
    I started writing up a RIFTS 3:16 hack after being prompted to do so by a comment on my blog.

    I stopped when another friend of mine showed me one of those infamous Palladium "cease and desist" emails, asking him to take down a fan site because it wasn't official. Legal stuff was heavily inferred in the email, I don;t have time for stuff like that so I stopped writing the hack.
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     # 9
    Christian, I don't think there needs to be MUCH difference in mechanical weight. Like, if I was running Burning Rifts with Mouse Guard and a Glitterboy gave you +2 Attack / +1 Defend and a Vibro-Knife gave you +1 Attack, that sounds good to me.
  10.  # 10
    Posted By: Christian Griffen I assume plain narrative differences between a Ray gun and a sword just wouldn't cut it, right?


    Maybe, but maybe not. The differences were mostly in flavour. I mean sure, my Mind Melter was different from your Dog Boy or your Cyborg Cossak but the rules never made any sense at all. Like, some ray guns, vibro-swords or psi blasts were better than others for no particular reason. Add to that the power creep between supplements is like the difference between rocks and rockets, what was good about rifts was the narratives it inspired because the system was utter, utter crap.

    For those who like crunch, something like a heavily tailored Burning Wheel (like Burning Jihad) or Mouse Guard, oddly enough. Personally, I would think a heavily drifted Dogs or FATE could work really well too. This has been suggested before, but a Rifts-themed 3:16 could be a fun one off to get everyone in the mood the session before.

    Really, I think the answer is: find a game you like to already play and are familiar with, then hack for Rifts. Because all that is good about Rifts is just colour.
  11.  # 11
    Posted By: Jonathan WaltonChristian, I don't think there needs to be MUCH difference in mechanical weight. Like, if I was running Burning Rifts with Mouse Guard and a Glitterboy gave you +2 Attack / +1 Defend and a Vibro-Knife gave you +1 Attack, that sounds good to me.


    Or, like: power armor bumps you one up the food chain.
    • CommentAuthorbankuei
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2009
     # 12
    I'm glad folks mentioned Burning Wheel - I think the Black/Grey/White shade damage system would work really well for the power differences between SDC/MDC weapons.

    I liked the idea that normal weapons were really crappy against power armor and demons, I didn't like that they were completely useless. I'm much more of a fan of the "the whole town got together, 40% of us got killed, but dammit, we beat down the vampire-demon thing and locked it in the bank vault. And we don't open the bank vault. Ever."

    Plus the Juicers' path to Final Burnout is a perfect set up for an Emotional Attribute track.
  13.  # 13
    I say use the power creep intentionally. Follow the story as the characters die off and are replaced while you travel across the world hunting something that's bigger than it seems and which keeps getting stronger. This requires a sort of Rifts Supplement Power Level Rating, but I really feel like someone must have done that already.
  14.  # 14
    Posted By: vulpinoidI started writing up a RIFTS 3:16 hack after being prompted to do so bya comment on my blog.

    I stopped when another friend of mine showed me one of those infamous Palladium "cease and desist" emails, asking him to take down a fan site because it wasn't official. Legal stuff was heavily inferred in the email, I don;t have time for stuff like that so I stopped writing the hack.


    Well thats why you don't make a Rifts 3:16 hack you hack 3:16 to create a multidimensional setting GASH adventures in the bowls of the multi verse. ^_^
  15.  # 15
    I found Mutants and Masterminds to work well for Rifts, but the idea of item gain is pretty centric to the setting
  16.  # 16
    This thread is making me want to find a used copy of Rifts somewhere for $7.
    • CommentAuthorColinC
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009 edited
     # 17
    Posted By: weaverchildeI found Mutants and Masterminds to work well for Rifts, but the idea of item gain is pretty centric to the setting


    My (insert currently politically correct term for games talked about more on RPG.net and En World than here) group is playing it with Mutants and Masterminds too. We got around the item gain issue by playing a squad of Coalition soldiers. There are still issues, but it has been fun.
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      CommentAuthormjbauer
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 18
    I was so excited to play Rifts and Robotech back in high school, but I found both of them frustratingly hard to understand and not very fun to play. Which is too bad, because both of the settings really captured my imagination, but the stories I envisioned were never anything like the game sessions we actually had.

    Since then I've tried a number of times to create games with similar settings but I have yet to figure out a way to make power armor work in any game without completely unbalancing it.

    I don't want power armor to give a person so many advantages that they are invincible, but at the same time it there shouldn't be so many penalties or weaknesses that it cancels out the whole point of having it.*

    *That point being that power armor is awesome.
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      CommentAuthormjbauer
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 19
    Posted By: hans ottersonThis thread is making me want to find a used copy of Rifts somewhere for $7.


    How about ¢.97?
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      CommentAuthorCedric P
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 20
    I want a Robotech hack! ^_^
    • CommentAuthorColinC
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 21
    Posted By: mjbauer
    Posted By: hans ottersonThis thread is making me want to find a used copy of Rifts somewhere for $7.


    How about ¢.97?


    Just a heads-up - that's not the main Rulebook, but rather one of the first supplements that came out for the game. I'm sure there are plenty of cheap copies of the actual game out there, though.
    •  
      CommentAuthormjbauer
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 22
    Posted By: ColinC
    Posted By: mjbauer
    Posted By: hans ottersonThis thread is making me want to find a used copy of Rifts somewhere for $7.


    How about ¢.97?


    Just a heads-up - that's not the main Rulebook, but rather one of the first supplements that came out for the game. I'm sure there are plenty of cheap copies of the actual game out there, though.


    Oops. Didn't look close enough at the cover. Here it is for ¢.75.
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 23
    Posted By: Cedric PI want a Robotech hack! ^_^

    Bliss Stage, yo. Feelings + mecha vs. aliens. It's all there.
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      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 24
    Rifts <3
    Robotech <3 <3
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness <3 <3 <3

    I'd use, in order, The Shadow of Yesterday, Bliss Stage, and ... man. I dunno. Any hints on the last one?
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 25
    Mouse Guard, since it needs to be fighty.

    Turtle nature is good for slow and deliberate action, protecting oneself, and eating. The TMNT tend to act against their nature a lot, the crazy kids.
    •  
      CommentAuthorccreitz
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 26
    Posted By: hans ottersonI don't have any experience with Rifts, and have heard of it mostly as the butt of jokes. I've also heard the system is totally trashy and broken. Assuming these things are true, what would be a good game to hack to fit the epic gonzoness that Rifts lays down on the table?
    The game deserves to be the butt of jokes. It is indeed trashy and broken. The problem with replacing it is that some of what makes it epically gonzo is its very trashy brokenness! Rifts is about making Superman fight Batman. It is about making Gandalf fight the alien queen from the Alien movies. The creator of Rifts was unwilling to make any serious decisions about what does or doesn't matter, so he crammed it all in there, to make sure that he had provided the most complete imaginable support for mechanically supporting masturbatory power fantasies. That's basically all the system is good for. I've played it at some length, and it's a boring, cumbersome pile of crap, even with a motivated and otherwise awesome GM at the wheel, and even if everyone is juiced about the setting. As soon as two people want to use the system to resolve a disagreement over the story, you regret having chosen Rifts as your system.

    That said, given your stated intent, I'd advise you to get the original, read it, and decide what part of it really appeals to you. Lots of people have made setting-based suggestions, and there have been a few mechanical suggestions if you decide that's the best part (at which one lols). But honestly, if you really want Rifts-style powercrap for ironic/nostalgic/gonzo reasons, it's hard to beat Rifts itself, with any subset of its hundreds (?) of lovingly detailed sourcebooks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBWA
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 27
    Posted By: Jonathan WaltonTurtle nature is good for slow and deliberate action, protecting oneself, and eating. The TMNT tend to act against their nature a lot, the crazy kids.


    My high-school gaming group played many a TMNT campaign, but we never actually played the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It was always anthropomorphic wolves and bears with machineguns and time machines.

    I'll second The Shadow of Yesterday as ruleset.

    More indie games need BIO-E as a mechanic.
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      CommentAuthorBWA
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 28
    Posted By: ccreitzThat's basically all the system is good for. I've played it at some length, and it's a boring, cumbersome pile of crap...


    Oh SNAPS.
    •  
      CommentAuthorBen Lehman
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 29
    Yeah, Jonathan, to me TMNT wasn't actually about turtles, or ninjas, but about a cyborg-bobcat who was a devotee of the primal earth god having adventures with an armadillo named Pete.

    yrs--
    --Ben
    • CommentAuthorjaywalt
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2009
     # 30
    Dude, figuring out bobcat nature is easy. And if they are a cyborg, you just replace one of their 3 nature traits with one from robot nature.
  31.  # 31
    I loved played Rifts when I was younger. It didn't require any skill, but offered a lot of destruction and rule bending. My first character was a crazy with cybernetics and a vibro-warhammer. He didn't have a personality, but that was okay. The best part about Rifts was that the other books fit so well with each other because the system never really changed, plus they had "ley lines" that allowed for you to mix and it made sense. The Glitter Boy is the funniest character from Rifts. The first "campaign" (read: skirmish) that I designed involved a city where 7 or 8 glitter boys took over the police station and my friend and I had to keep them from arresting us. We came up with creative ways to beat characters far superior to us in power.
  32.  # 32
    HeroQuest. It's the best system that can gracefully handle the range of power of a dragon adventuring with a normal human.

    Posted By: mjbauerOops. Didn't look close enough at the cover.Here it is for ¢.75.


    That's insane! Anyone got change for a penny? ;)
    •  
      CommentAuthorCedric P
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2009
     # 33
    Posted By: Alvin FrewerHeroQuest. It's the best system that can gracefully handle the range of power of a dragon adventuring with a normal human.


    Or maybe Capes! :D
    • CommentAuthorjoepub
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2009
     # 34
    I wrote a game called Sugarfighter Black. It's a game about Juicers, getting revenge against their former masters.
  35.  # 35
    I always thought of Rifts as a crappier version of TORG. I see now the gonzoness of it is what makes it appealing, but I'd still be tempted to try to use TORG. That's a game where the differences between magic and tech and primal nature and other stuff did actually mean something even if it could have been implemented better - still cool, though.
  36.  # 36
    I think Solar System would be a great option, since it gives you breadth and customization with character options.

    But if I had to play it tonight, then octanE, of course!
  37.  # 37
    Or maybe Capes! :D


    True, Capes and other "story scale" games (Dogs in the Vineyard, In A Wicked Age, Primetime Adventures, and others) could absolutely handle it as well (well, except you have to rejigger Capes' "power is fun" premise to account for magic, supertech, or whatever else you want to put the emphasis on).

    Although what I like about HQ is that you can do either story scale or relative power scale or both. Although a dragon with a keyword consisting of 3 or 4 masteries would overshadow the normal dude who starts with only 17s, but this is how Rifts is written so maybe that's okay. You could also run a power game there everyone has a very high keyword or where every starts with 17s whether it's Frontier Doctor 17 or Kytos the Vampire Intelligence 17 and the system is equally smooth with either direction without needing bigger numbers or bigger die pools or slowing down in anyway.
  38.  # 38
    Posted By: Ben LehmanRifts <3
    Robotech <3 <3
    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness <3 <3 <3

    I'd use, in order, The Shadow of Yesterday, Bliss Stage, and ... man. I dunno. Any hints on the last one?


    Here's one :)
    •  
      CommentAuthormjbauer
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2009
     # 39
    Posted By: Cedric PI want a Robotech hack! ^_^


    You and me both.
    •  
      CommentAuthorJuddG
    • CommentTimeNov 23rd 2009
     # 40
    Palladium just came out with some manga-sized Robotech game books. They seemed to have a reduced version of the system and felt pretty good in the hands (since they were manga digest size). Art was what I expect from them. Would love them to do "Beyond the Supernatural" like that.
  41.  # 41
    I saw those in my FLGS the other day--but the manga-sized Wild Talents for $10 easily won out :)
  42.  # 42
    I'd have to go with HeroQuest. It can handle the growth to infinite power and it's easy to toss in any character concept you can imagine. I've actually been meaning to run a Rifts HQ game for ever and ever.

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